Q&A with Samuel Sims and Jay Grainger
Our next writer Q&A is with Samuel Sims and Jay Grainger, a real-life couple who have written a 30-minute script, called Everyone We Know Has Kids, about two queer men wanting to become parents.
Samuel Sims and Jay Grainger. Photo by Sergej Komkov.
Why was it important to you to write this story?
It was so important to us to write a story about two queer men wanting to become parents, but not knowing where the hell to start, because it’s our story. It feels as though we’ve spent the last several years talking about this very thing – getting excited, doing some research but then stopping the whole process because it’s just too overwhelming and complicated. The information that’s out there is also just so clinical and inaccessible and we see queer men in the public eye who make it look easy. However it’s anything but; it’s very stressful and very expensive. Whilst we appreciate that their journeys will likely be less glossy than we see on social media, they’re still the only ones we see and are expected to relate to.
We wanted to write a piece that prompts conversations about those of us who can’t have children, where the audience might come away with questions, not necessarily answers, reflecting the reality for many like us. When we’ve opened up in our own life and wanted others to know how we feel, the response has often been silence, awkwardness, or cliched advice, because most people are only used to talking about the needs of those with a family, not those without.
People are complicated and in a queer relationship there are additional obstacles to overcome. It was important to us, that our piece also reflects the other needs of a queer relationship where family isn't everything and that the need for love, laughter, joy, career success, connection, stability (the list goes on), is also the driving force behind everything these characters want.
Ultimately, we wanted more authentic queer stories, which drove us to write one, and we hope others who may also be struggling, will see themselves reflected in it.
How has this writing process been for you?
Firstly, neither of us had written with another person before, never mind with their partner! There were long days, lost weekends, excitable creative chats about who the characters were and more strategic ones about what should fit where. It was a really interesting, unforgettable experience.
It also ended up being life-changing. We did quite a bit of research and part of that was meeting another couple who had a child via surrogacy. They told us about their journey and hearing that made it a million times more accessible than any website we’d scoured. Now, from a personal perspective, starting a family of our own actually seems like it could happen, and from a professional perspective, we have tons of material that will go into a longer piece.
It’s also worth noting that we did an Arvon writing retreat near Hebden Bridge, when we were at the very early stages of putting this story together and before we were commissioned by Middle Child. We spent a week in an old house, formerly inhabited by Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath, with other writers, working during the day, going for walks and lovely meals and having the odd tipple in the evenings. We recommend Arvon retreats to everyone who needs some quiet time to get away and write.
Tell us about your set-up for writing.
We always worked during the day and for draft one, we wrote separately, taking a few scenes each to write and then come together to talk about them. During this time, Jay would have several cups of tea and have some gentle music on in the background, specifically film soundtracks where the music can steer an emotional connection, down a road not necessarily intended. Sam needs to, most of the time, work in complete silence, but every now and again would play something by Lorde to get the creative juices flowing. Usually Ribs on repeat.
Then for draft two, we went over the scenes we already had together at our dining room table. Being on the sofa would be too relaxing and serve as too much of a distraction. There was still no music (Sam got his way), tea, coffee, sometimes Pro-Plus and ADHD medication, but never all together.
Without giving major spoilers, what's your favourite line in your piece, and why?
Sam’s is a quote we put in from a beloved 90s film. It perfectly captures Jack and Dylan’s relationship, their chemistry, history, shared sense of humour. The play is pretty serious at times but there’s also a lot of humour and joy in there, as well as nostalgia. Sam squealed with delight when we agreed to put this in, as it’s also one of his favourite films.
Jay’s is: “Is it queer life? Or just ours, our life?”, a line that we believe says quite a lot in those few words. We wanted to write a play that was primarily for people within the LGBTQIA+ community, but as we spoke with people about it, we realised that our story could connect with everyone. We often spend so much time focusing on what makes us different that we often can forget what we also share with each other. We are all just people after all and we have more in common than not. When we grow in a world that requires us to be hyper self-aware of our sexuality and gender identities, it can be hard to remember that we don't just represent those things. Sometimes our stories are about being queer and part of a community, but we are not all the same and we should never be treated as if we are, by others and most importantly, by our own expectations.
Were any of your characters influenced by real life people?
Yes, they’re influenced by us, or at least our experiences. However, Jack and Dylan are very much their own people, and we worked hard to make sure they were/are separate from us. Obviously, there will be similarities between us and quirks we have that they do too. We’re both incredibly introspective and spend probably too long analysing the way we think and behave, so there are parts of ourselves in the boys we thought could work.
How do you feel about your characters?
They’re both frustrating at times, but we always, always want the best for them and we hope the audience feel the same. We agree with them both during the play, but we also disagree with them. We cringe at them, are aghast at the way they treat each other at times and upset when they get under each other’s skin and make something deeply personal. At the end of the day, they’re human – in all their beautiful, complex glory and we never like people all the time, just like we don’t always like ourselves. We never, ever wanted to create characters that felt flat, or said things in cliched ways or behaved like stereotypes.
Do your characters do or say anything that really resonates with you?
When Jack says he’s sick of being told he should adopt, just because most cis-straight people don’t consider that queer people can have biological kids. We’ve had that same conversation a thousand times and it is exhausting. Yes, there are too many children who desperately need families but why does that always have to be our responsibility?
But also in this scene, the boys talk about opposing social norms while doing the very opposite – wanting to be parents, which is probably the most conventional thing you can do. We really love and relate to how loaded this is. Yes, they’re confused about their place in the world and do and don’t want to be like everyone else, but actually, becoming queer parents is quite a radical act. They may be in their mid-30s but they’re still figuring stuff out and don’t completely know who they are – it’d be ridiculous if we made out they did!
Jack and Dylan don’t want it to be harder for them to become parents, they just want to be like ‘everyone else’ and them saying they think they’ll make great dads is something we find ourselves saying and thinking a lot in our own lives. We often have people tell us that we would make great dads and whilst it’s lovely to hear, it’s also really hard because we don’t know if we’ll ever get a chance to prove it.
Who would play one of your characters in the film version?
Julio Torres as Jack! His writing work for SNL is amazing, as is Problemista, a film he starred in and wrote and directed. Tilda Swinton is in this film too – can we arrange for her to play someone? She can literally do anything. Tony Leung Chiu-Wai (In the Mood For Love and Happy Together) as Dylan, but him from the late 90s. Such a charismatic, attractive man who can appear quite closed off and unreadable yet also shows a lot of vulnerability.
Another pairing would be Ben Whishaw as Dylan and Brandon Flynn as Jack. Jonathan Bailey could also play either role. All three of these actors are undeniably charming and deliver emotionally layered performances, but they also all identify as gay men, which is important to us.
We don’t hate that ‘straight’ actors have played queer roles. People like Paul Mescal (All of Us Strangers), Timothee Chalamet (Call Me by Your Name), Jake Gyllenhaal (Brokeback Mountain), and Tony Leung Chiu-Wai, plus many other straight actors, have played some of our all time fave queer roles. However, in an industry and world where queer and trans artists still fight to be heard, and where equality doesn't yet truly exist, we think it's important to prioritise LGBTQIA+ performers right now. Torres, Whishaw, Flynn and Bailey are just some of the many people who could be considered from our community.
If your play has had a life before now, how has it developed? And if not, how would you like to see if developed in the future?
Sam was part of Middle Child’s writers’ group a few years ago and the piece he put together there was similar – two guys chatting about stuff, showing what it’s like to be in a relationship. Jay did Hull Truck’s playwriting group around the same time and coincidentally also wrote a piece about a couple, with him leaning more into the ‘how the hell do we start a family’ storyline. Both were received very well and someone suggested we come together and write something. We did, applied for Fresh Ink and the rest is history.
Going forward, we’re really excited to see how it will be received at Fresh Ink. We want to develop it further, make it double, triple the length and continue this journey with Jack and Dylan. Ideally, we’d love a full run produced in Hull, then maybe a run at the Dorfman space at the National Theatre. Not that we’re setting our sights high or anything.
The most important thing for us is that the story resonates with people. The ideal producer/director to take this forward, in our eyes would be someone who understands why this is a story that needs to be told and someone who sees that this conversation is missing from our classrooms, offices and cafes, on our stages and TV screens and feels fired up to change that. Whether it is for stage or screen, we would be beyond excited to collaborate further with the right person.
What are you most looking forward to during rehearsals and the performances?
Being part of a professional process, seeing our play go from the commission stage to an actual stage in front of lots of people is something we’re both really looking forward to. Then seeing the way it’ll be interpreted by different people – the director and the actors in rehearsals – which we’ll both be a part of.
Director Mark Babych directed Jay’s first piece for Hull Truck Theatre’s writing group, and he asked all the right questions with the utmost care and respect. Jay remembers Mark giving him a note in his early writing to be mindful of whether it’s your character saying something or if it’s Jay and Sam, an easy wire to cross with such a personal story. This valuable advice became a powerful editing tool throughout this writing experience, and we look forward to gaining further tips from Mark’s expertise. The actors will most definitely bring their own questions, personal experience and opinions to the table and we are very much looking forward to seeing them add to Jack and Dylan’s personalities.
At the actual performances, we are looking forward to seeing audience's reactions to certain lines, wondering whether they’ll laugh with us at certain moments and be surprised at others. It will be exciting to hear how people from different walks of life will respond to it, and fascinating to hear the varied ways people might relate or react.
What would you say to someone who is thinking about applying for Fresh Ink 2026?
Everyone has a story to tell and even if it’s an idea similar to something that has been done before, it’s not your story. If you don’t know where to start, start there. What do you want/need to share with the world?
It’s incredible that a festival like this, for emerging writers, exists and that an effort has been made to nurture people who have little to no experience or exposure. Even if you’re having doubts about how well put together your play currently is or think it’s a bag of crap, as long as you feel strongly enough that you have something important to say, it’s worth applying for.
This experience is not about putting the end product in front of an audience, it’s about collaborating with people who know what they’re talking about and getting feedback from theatre-lovers, to get it to the next stage and to make it stronger. Also, Middle Child are amazing to work with and you will feel very looked after.
Samuel and Jay’s play Everyone We Know Has Kids will be performed on Saturday 19 July at 4.30pm and Sunday at 3.00pm, alongside Roll to React by Michelle Kelly and Meet You at the Corner by Laura Wilson.